Reuel: Thank you very much for setting aside some time for our chat. I was approached by Professor Muxe Nkondo, who suggested that I reflect on some of the thought processes I’ve gone through - the books I’ve written, my chairmanships, my directorships, and the like. He believed that such reflections might be more useful than simply saying, “Hey, look at me.”

That's why I’ve asked people I’ve worked with, like yourself, to be the ones to question me - so that my reflection is not some macabre chest beating exercise.

Mike: Yes, that's good. I had a chat with the Professor, and he shared that background with me. Are you happy that I just fire away with the questions I have prepared and then we just work our way through them?

Reuel: Yes, and it seems there is a recording which will be quite helpful, allowing us to speak more freely.

Mike: Excellent. So, Chair, you’ve had an absolutely amazing business career - from consulting and entrepreneurial undertakings, to chairing some of the largest companies in South Africa. Looking back on this incredible journey, could you highlight a few of your greatest achievements and share the key lessons you’ve learned from them?

Reuel: Certainly. With all humility, given my background, it would have been highly unlikely for someone like me to become Chairman of a bank like Nedbank, let alone have the opportunity to lead it through a particularly challenging period. Together with my colleagues, we were able to steer the bank to a position of strength, earning the respect and admiration of nearly all stakeholders. I would say that was a significant achievement.

Given: To begin, I thought it would be a missed opportunity if we didn't take a moment to focus on the concept of a personal compass. Every day, we’re confronted with choices - be they professional, personal or societal. If we think about a compass in its simplest form, it's a tool for direction - to use a compass effectively, you first need to locate yourself - in a spot or in a space, your position, your context. Then you must determine where north, south, east and west lie. But the starting point is you. Secondly, before asking the question of the direction you need to go in, you must first determine the set of reasons and motives that would propel you one way rather than another. I want to just open it up here and ask if you agree that the analogy of a compass is useful in this context? And if so, how important is it for an individual to have an instrument - a personal compass, a sense of location, before moving forward? I wanted to start there.

Reuel: I think it's an excellent place to start Given. Every person, every organisation, even every nation, starts somewhere. But at the core of it all, the ultimate unit of analysis is the individual - and the individual also starts somewhere. Before you can even develop a sense of direction, which would eventually allow you to access and use your compass, you need to be somewhere. In my case, that somewhere was a place near a mission station called Arthurseat Nazarene Mission Station. We lived about seven or eight kilometres from there. That's where I grew up - still quite hazy, unsure of many things. But in terms of the compass, my northern star, my due north, was my school principal. He also led the singing in church and had a fantastic voice. He lived at the mission station with his family. His children dressed well, carried themselves with pride, and they just looked… sharper, more polished, more confident than the rest of us. So, for me, my due north became J. Russell Saoli. And I remember telling anyone who would listen: “When I grow up, I want to be a principal.” That became my compass, my sense of destiny was that one day I shall be principal because I wanted to be like that guy.

Bridget: Dr Khoza, I would like to hear from you- as an astute businessperson, academic, farmer, musician, the list goes on - can you take me through your career journey?

Reuel: Your question essentially is how this diversity come about? When I was in primary school, my father thought I was bright, felt I should actually study medicine. Initially, we agreed that perhaps that's what I should do. But further down the line, I decided medicine was not meant for me. I gave him an undertaking that I would be called ‘Doctor’ just not of medicine. After matric, I felt strongly committed to my siblings. I come from a fairly large family of seven, and my parents were not doing particularly well financially. I wanted to pursue something I could complete quickly and then continue the rest of my studies via correspondence.

Bridget: I’m intrigued by the fact that your father wanted you to be a doctor, and though you weren't interested in medicine, you still committed to becoming a doctor in another field. So you had the vision to fulfil the promise you made to your dad. That's really powerful.

Reuel: Correct, I couldn't afford to disappoint them. My parents were particularly good to me being the firstborn, even though they left me with my grandparents in 1956, who were just as good. Hard work was instilled in me from the beginning, both by my father and my grandfather. That work ethic - the commitment to apply oneself - largely came from them. So when I was fired from Turfloop, I was worried that my father will say, “Well, you have now disappointed me.” To my surprise, he just looked at me, paused for one pregnant moment and then said, “You know, I have confidence in you. I know you will bounce back”.

Muxe: In almost all your books - viiThe Power of Governance: Enhancing the Performance of State Owned Enterprises; Let Africa Lead: African Transformational Leadership for 21st Century Business; Attuned Leadership: African Humanism as Compass; viiiThe African in My Dream: A Corporate Participant - Observer's Odyssey 1983 - 2013 - what comes up most clearly is the ethics of governance and leadership in our time. Why this concern, why the anxiety? Has there been a rupture in our social, economic, and political order, an elision?

Reuel: My authorship has essentially been focused on these subjects because of the significance I ascribe to them as pivotal to organisational success. Without due regard to them, community, organisational, corporate as well as national success and prosperity are well-nigh impossible. Sound leadership, good governance and ethics tend to be complementary, a virtual trinity.

Good governance is sound, ethical leadership in practice, and sine qua non to organisational success and sustainability. Pervasive decadence particularly in our political leadership motivated me to speak and write about these subjects in an attempt to help stem the negative tide. Some fifteen years into South Africa's democracy, the rot deepened into prebendalism and later virtual kleptocracy, making it imperative for concerned citizens to take a stand to fight these vile practices one way or another.

Muxe: Why is it that since the democratic transition in 1994, only a few blacks and a few women have moved up into the inner circle of power, wealth, and knowledge leaving millions at the margins, without the requisite agency to make things happen in their lives? Are there limits intrinsic in our policies and laws? Or is the problem essentially behavioural?

Imogen: First of all, I found the whole approach of conducting interview conversations for this project pretty interesting. I look forward to the final product, and it will be interesting to see its development. The project certainly marks a significant milestone in your personal journey. Our stories essentially revolve around individuals, partnerships, and collaborations that are integral to our everyday lives. These experiences shape our lives as we embark on our journeys. So, my contributions here will largely reflect my role in your journey, which includes, among others, my time at ABASA.

Reuel: The South African Student Internship Programme or Foundation - that was a time when a good number of South African students were studying abroad and were battling to phase back into the country. We had a foundation that facilitated that and got quite a number of them placed. You were a trustee of that.

Imogen: Yes, those were the early days when I first encountered you. I don't know which came first - ABASA or SASIF, but you know, my advisory role exposed me to a lot of people. I was first a board member and then an Executive Director of ABASA. Then there was Eskom. Mohamed Adam and Eric Mafuna were part of the group you put together. Remind me again, it was a small group of very smart people. I was humbled to be part of it.

Reuel: It was at a time when I brought Eric to be a consultant to Eskom and he was talking about African corporate transformation. I asked him to do a comparison of leadership and business life in general - amongst the Jews, the Africans, the Indians and the Coloureds. Each one of those groupings, because of the dictatorship of apartheid, had a somewhat different approach or orientation to life. He ended up actually writing very extensively. I don't know whether I still have copies of that, I may have taken them to the farm.

Integrating gender and leadership: Addressing gaps in the discourse

Throughout this book, the themes of ethical leadership, governance, and Pan- Africanism have been explored within the broader economic, socio-political and cultural context of Africa. However, a critical dimension of leadership remains underexamined - the intersection of gender, leadership, and systemic barriers that continue to plague the leadership experiences of African women. Leadership, as traditionally framed, has often centred on male-dominated structures, inadvertently overlooking the unique challenges and contributions of women in governance, business, and society. While the principles of ubuntu and ethical leadership provide a foundation for inclusive governance, their real-world application often inadvertently reinforce traditional gender roles rather than dismantling them. Addressing these dynamics is essential for creating leadership models that reflect the diverse realities of all African societies.

The following article seeks to bridge this gap by examining gender-based violence as both a constitutional and moral crisis in South Africa. Drawing on insights from The South African Handbook of Agency, Freedom, and Justice: Citizens in Conversation, the article highlights how systemic patriarchy, economic inequality, and institutional failures contribute to the ongoing marginalisation of women.

By incorporating this discussion, the editor strengthens the book's commitment to a holistic and inclusive perspective on African leadership, acknowledging that true transformation requires the recognition and integration of diverse leadership experiences.

GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE IN SOUTH AFRICA: A CONSTITUTIONAL AND MORAL IMPERATIVE

Insights from The South African Handbook of Agency, Freedom and Justice: Citizens in Conversation

Gender-based violence (GBV) remains one of the most critical and pressing challenges in South Africa today, threatening the foundational values of equality, dignity, and freedom enshrined in the Constitution. Recognising its devastating impact on individuals, families and society, the recently published South African Handbook of Agency, Freedom, and Justice: Citizens in Conversation sheds critical light on this pervasive scourge, contextualising it within historical patriarchy and systemic inequality and urging for meaningful change as both a moral and constitutional imperative.