The charters in question are both issued in the name of Elise ap Madog to Strata Marcella. One relates to lands in Penllyn and is dated at Esgyngaenog, 18 April 1183. The other relates to lands in Edeirnion and is dated at Esgyngaenog, 15 May 1198. Suspicion is first aroused by the fact that both charters, though apparently relating to different areas, and separated by some fifteen years, have exactly the same witnesses, given in exactly the same order. Suspicion deepens if we focus on the figure who appears at the head of the witness-lists, Gruffudd, abbot of Strata Marcella. The problem here is that one Ithel was abbot of Strata Marcella until his death in 1187; he is recorded as abbot as early as 1176. This of course creates a problem with regard to the earlier charter. And though Ithel was indeed succeeded by Gruffudd, the latter's death is recorded in the Brutiau under the year 1196. Here, then, is a problem for the second charter, that purporting to be of ‘15 May, 1198’. It is true that Huw Pryce has pointed to the tendency for the Brutiau to misplace some elements of their entries by a year – but in general such misplacement seems to involve an entry in the year after the correct date; if that should be the case with the death of Gruffudd it would only compound the problem. It is important to note that both documents were drawn up by the same scribe – designated by Graham Thomas as ‘Hand A’ or ‘Scribe A’. This scribe was responsible for a number of the charters of Strata Marcella, but alone of all his productions these two documents under discussion include the use of the ‘papal knot’ as a mark of suspension. This suggests that these two documents may have been produced at the same time, or nearly so.

As a consequence, though these documents may contain elements of genuine grants they cannot be accepted as authentic acts of Elise at the dates on which they purport to have been issued. It is difficult to establish when they may have been produced, but the circumstances of 1202 certainly provide a possible context, with significant political change taking place in the region to which they relate: the replacement of Elise by Llywelyn ab Iorwerth in much of Penllyn and, quite possibly, by Madog ap Gruffudd in Edeirnion.