Raisibe: Thank you for this opportunity. Baba Khoza, you are a notably soft-spoken person, an introvert, and a very private person. This is in contrast to some of the most influential leaders, even though their personalities and their leadership styles often intermingle. How has this personality been a key trait to your success as a leader?

Reuel: Yes, I am quiet to a degree - also contemplative, even meditative. How has this helped? As I began to interface with people a lot more seriously, I realised that perhaps it's more advisable to listen thoroughly before you express your opinion. That approach served me well, especially when I was leading large organisations like Eskom. At the time, I had a Master's degree, but I was surrounded by people with specialised expertise - electrical engineers, accountants, and other experts. It made sense to defer to their knowledge. I let them teach me about turbines, power stations, and things like that - areas where I had some understanding, but not the depth they did.

To answer your question, yes, adopting a quiet and reflective stance helped me lead more effectively. It made it easier to be fair, to truly listen, and to learn before responding. That's how it helped my leadership and my involvement with transformation. Not because I was a wonderful engineering person, but because I deferred to people who knew. That approach played a meaningful role in driving transformation - because when people feel heard and respected, they are far more willing to help shape the future.

Reuel: This has been a long time coming, Sim. I really appreciate you making time for this interview.

Sim: I’ve got lots of questions. And as you can remember, I am a failed lawyer - so forgive me if I approach this the way a lawyer would - forensically.

Reuel: Successful lawyers don't practice law. They use their legal training to do bigger things.

Sim: Indeed, absolutely. To start off, one of your most significant interventions, I think, was in 2012 when, as Chairman of Nedbank, you were very outspoken in saying that “South Africa appears to have a strange breed of leaders, quite determined to undermine the rule of law and override the Constitution.” Now, as we have learned from a decade of difficulties, painstakingly described by the Zondo Commission, you turned out to be 100% correct.

But allow me to challenge you - could it be argued that business leaders do not have a mandate to drive the political leadership debate? After all, is it not the role of citizens, who have an absolute right to political speech? What, then, is our duty as leaders in business - where we are both citizens and corporate leaders? Where does one draw that line?

Reuel: Yes, it's a question that many have asked me - even challenged me on - saying, “Khoza you are not a politician, what do you want in this territory?”

My response is typically that even before I am chairman of any bank, I am a citizen. But beyond that, as a chairman of a bank or any corporation, I am part of a collective body - a legal person. I am a legal subset within that body. I am a citizen, first and foremost, and as such, I’m deeply concerned about what happens in the macro environment.

Nkateko: Good morning, how are you?

Gloria: I’m well, and you?

Nkateko: I’m fine, thank you.

Gloria: Awesome. So, Professor Nkondo is doing this book, and I asked to see the list of interviewees. When I did, I said, “Did you skip family deliberately? Reuel's biggest mentee is Nkateko. You must interview her. They share both a family and professional life.” Professor Nkondo said, “Oh, I didn't think about that, can you do that then?” And so it became my work.

Nkateko: You created your own work.

Gloria: I did! And I guess it was because I felt so strongly about it and I knew the perspective that wouldn't be covered if you were not interviewed. I am quite happy to do it. He has mentored so many of us. I also remember how he frowns upon people who drink wine. He watches how many glasses you are drinking like a hawk.

Nkateko: It is so unfair!! He doesn't say anything, he just looks.

Gloria: It's in his body language. He let it slip the other day and said, “You know, I watched you the other day and I counted the glasses that you drank” and I said “Oh, gosh, why were you even counting?” But it's been an absolute pleasure to be professionally brought up by him and I’m quite keen to hear your side. Now I want to hear - how you see him as a father at home, as a mentor in your career, and as a national figure.

Gloria: Your message has been consistent from as long ago as I can recall. At BMF, you were always focused on achieving a specific outcome for South Africa. If you do not mind, can we just spend a bit of time reflecting on that? How far do you think we are from the vision you had?

Reuel: Perhaps I should just look at a few antecedents - what made me committed to the country? What made me committed to the ANC and why I feel duty bound to say something in a bid to build our country. As a student I yearned for material that would liberate my mind, my political, and economic situation. So, I sought out books by Americans like James Baldwin, Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X. Around that time, Sbu Ndebele, whom I believe you recall, was the librarian at the University of the North, now the University of Limpopo. He was somewhat clandestinely distributing all manner of what was then banned material. One late afternoon, he came to me and said, “I’ve been listening to you talk about decolonising the African mind as President of the Psychology Society. And I’ve heard you give interpretations of songs that are liberatory. Don't you think you’d like to cement your understanding of the liberation movement by reading this book?” He handed me No Easy Road to Freedom by Nelson Mandela, a book that was banned at the time. He added, “I guess you’ll need to become a speed reader. I’m giving it to you now at 5pm, tomorrow morning at 5am I am collecting it.”

Essential Reflections: Reuel Jethro Mbhayimbhayi Khoza is a collection of interviews with Reuel by people wishing to know more about him, and his reflections on his journey, his accomplishments, his philosophy on being and what this means to South Africa. It is not that South Africans do not know Reuel, but essentially because he has had such a profound and far-reaching impact on the lives of most South Africans, in business, public life and academia, and essentially on the transformation journey that South Africa undertook in 1994. Someone, and in this instance, it happened to be the late Professor Muxe Nkondo, had to express a need for Reuel's philosophy and reflections on life and experiences. These could best be expressed in interviews with Reuel himself rather than in a biography as, in the words of Nkondo, “biographies tend to be preoccupied with chronology and the sequence of events, and do not allow for the communication of ideas and experiences.” This is because Reuel's multi-dimensional contributions and success are confounding to anyone who reflects on the great contributions to South Africa by South Africans. This is essentially so, in circumstances where ‘heroic deeds’ have been limited to the domain of politics to our chagrin. Reuel transcends politics and that is why his success confounds many. Were he not my long-standing close friend, I would also be confounded, but I am not; not because his personality and achievements do not confound me, but because I have come to understand and appreciate the person in Reuel. Understandably, I will comment on Reuel's reflections selectively, as space will not allow for a full repertoire.

Nolitha: I must say, interviewing you like this is both a daunting and fulfilling task. I just hope we’re able to meet expectations - especially because, with a leader of your stature, we’d need an entire day for this conversation. The next hour feels daunting, too, because I’ve spent about thirty years in the business world with Reuel Khoza's voice and presence as a constant in our business networks - long before my own journey began. You’re also a peer to the likes of the late Lot Ndlovu and many others who paved the way. So yes, it's daunting - but I’m truly grateful and excited for the opportunity.

Reuel: Thank you I am grateful that you chose to oblige.

Nolitha: The one I’d really like to explore with you - because it's been a consistent theme - is your focus on developing people who think deeply and with the best visible actions. You’ve always been committed to shaping business leaders of substance, whether black or white. There's been a clear effort to transcend the race issue, especially at executive level. Where does this come from? How did you get to the point of starting a business during what I would refer to as the dark days – before 1984?

Reuel: Thank you very much. I think the seed was planted quite early - probably in primary school. For some reason, I was elected Chair of the Debate Society, and that continued through high school. By the time I was in matric, I became head prefect, which already suggested some emerging leadership qualities. There were two boarding masters who essentially offloaded their responsibilities onto me - not just delegated - because they felt the students took me more seriously than the average high school prefect.

Muxe: Good Morning Mumsy. I know you are an extremely busy businesswoman, so we appreciate you making the time to participate in this extremely important project. As you know, we’re compiling a book on Reuel. I knew him as a student at Turfloop and as chairman of the Choral Society. He has accomplished so much - as a businessperson, visiting professor, Chancellor of Turfloop and of UKZN. He has done extremely well. We feel that it's important for us to make space for him to share his experience and insights, particularly with the youth and emerging entrepreneurs.

You have been closer to him than anyone else. Your reflections will be invaluable in shedding light on how he has done it all. This story is not just about Reuel, it's also about you, Mumsy. We can't pretend that you don't have a story of your own. We can't pretend that the youth can't learn from female entrepreneurs. You run your own business, and we’d like make space for you to tell your own story - firstly in relation to Reuel, but also in terms of your own entrepreneurial journey.

Mumsy: Thank you. Your first question - my view on the democratic transition that has been hailed as a major breakthrough in social, economic and political relations in our country - yes, it was a major breakthrough. After a very long time, we finally overcame oppression and got rid of the apartheid system which deprived us of our democracy. Democracy brought us the opportunity to discover ourselves and restore our human dignity.

Eric: Let me maybe start by saying that I believe that whether this is an autobiography, or a biography is not the issue. The issue is that this is about your life - it's about your work - and obviously, along the way, the book will require you to deal with the usual stuff that you find in the biographies of so many great people. You get out of those biographies who the subject is, how they got to where they are, what they’re about, and what challenges they faced in their respective journeys.

I’m not going to go through all those tribal experiences. I remember once you were telling me about the old man, Ndubazi. I don't know how old you were, but Ndubazi's prodding dealt with the issue of instilling leadership commitment - based on hard work, education and self-development.

Now, I believe that if you’re putting together a book like this, the acknowledgement has to be made that you didn't just happen - you know, Khoza didn't just happen. There were great men and great women behind the scenes whether it was your father who said “I want a PhD, or I want a doctor in my family” or whether it was Mbhayimbhayi. I think perhaps we should revisit that phase because I think it's important. There is a link from them - you didn't just come out from nowhere and say, “Oh, I’m going to be a great guy.” You do that because you owe it to some people.

Reuel: Okay, just one little correction - Mbhayimbhayi is the great grandfather after whom I am named but I haven't actually met him. But I have lived with my grandfather. My grandfather was Ndubazi Jotham.

Matimba ya Vuyimbeleri (The power of music)

Andile: The line of questioning will focus on leadership attributes you demonstrated when you were younger, particularly relating to transitioning of leadership - when responsibilities were entrusted to you by your predecessors and elders. This is especially relevant in the current context, where there appears to be a lack of effective leadership transition planning.

Reuel: Do you mean leadership attributes and generational leadership and succession?

Andile: How can we reassign the responsibilities that we are given - please reflect more historically on your experiences. What was it at the time of Standard Bank that you could be assigned such responsibilities? Was it because you were visibly a responsible leader? Was there a prevailing culture at that time? This generation is struggling to transition leadership - younger leaders are reluctant or hesitant to assume power from the older generation. Even the corporate world has not transitioned - for instance, Sanlam has recently appointed a 57-year-old to a top leadership role.

Reuel: Apropos of Standard Bank and how I assumed such responsibility at that early age - for one thing it had to do with the era. There were very few black people who were both learned and experienced. As a result, companies had to use other ways of selecting and inviting people into positions of responsibility. What Standard Bank did was to set up an advisory board - not quite a typical board. It was more like a nursery for directorship. The people who served on this board engaged with real board members and raised real issues. It was a mix of fairly elderly and young people. As you engaged, they listened to the level your maturity and depth of understanding regardless of your age.

Muxe: Hi Zoya. Why we are here Zoya is that your grandfather has done a lot of work over the years in various fields and earned a lot of awards in various areas. So we thought we should use his experiences to advise, particularly, people of your age on how to deal with the problems your generation is facing now.

There are four problems that are confronting the country now. The first one is poverty. The second one is unemployment. The third one is social and economic inequality, perhaps the most severe in the world. We are told we have overtaken Brazil. The fourth one is violence against women. These four problems are what we’re trying to deal with using your grandfather's experience, his wisdom, and his unique insight.

Let me just start with the first question. Preparing and planning for your future, what would you like to be?

Zoya: I have definitely gravitated towards architecture and visual arts. I am creative at heart, I paint and I draw. That's something that has definitely sparked a flame in me. I’m studying architecture literature at UCT. I’m very excited. Last year I had a few health complications so I couldn't further my studies and that is why I am continuing with the same degree. I just loved it that much. One of the reasons is that I definitely believe that architecture deals with spaces, and spaces hold significant symbolic value in society. Spaces don't only represent the physical structures but also serve as symbols of creative environments where individuals can discover a sense of belonging and establish a place to call home.

We have to take Reuel Khoza's work and life as a whole, to follow them carefully, where they branch out in different directions, where they run into problems, move forward, make a breakthrough; we have to accept the complexity, welcome it in its entirety. Otherwise, we won't understand the scope and depth of his legacy. To quip that he appears to have examined every significant aspect of leadership is only a partial acknowledgement of his accomplishments as an entrepreneur, a scholar, a musician, and an engaged citizen. One needs to add that he appears to have always been attentive to his environment and place in a dynamic world. Probably the only adequate compliment is that nothing about leadership is alien to Khoza. Very few are more aware of or more sensitive to the imperative of integrity in public service.

In him nothing that needs to be said should not be said. Everything is subjected to the lens of informed and openly reasoned judgement. Fair to say that it is the assertion, over the years, of ethics as integral to leadership that marks him out as an exemplary citizen in business and politics. Personal interest must not trump the public good. So we cannot really understand Khoza's work and life until we understand the humanity that binds them together, that which he is committed to affirm and institutionalise. In his view, economics, politics, and ethics have to serve social bonds.

Who is Reuel Jethro Mbhayimbhayi Khoza? The possibilities are vast - entrepreneur, scholar, organic intellectual, musician, public figure, corporate professional, and, if nothing else, a pragmatist. But, perhaps, the most accurate characterization may simply be ‘Khozean’. The volume of conversations and interviews with esteemed colleagues assembled here present the ‘Khozean’ within those horizons immanent in his own writings and work, his own self-interpretations, his own references and allusions to other figures in business and politics. The interviews brought together have been selected with this in mind. Spanning virtually all of Khoza's career, they reveal the remarkable scope and depth of his thought and work.

They reveal his most enduring concerns and preoccupations, in which he wrestles with the perennial problem of multivocal democracy and ethical leadership. They bring together an incisive and passionate intelligence, which informs his engagement with politics, economics, public service, and behaviour. Accordingly, some of the interviews focus on music and his turn from aesthetics - as traditionally conceived - to pragmatic aesthetics, in which he points to the instrumental value of music and related artforms. This brings the interviews to the delicate link between knowledge and action - the normative articulation of the boundary between ideas and practice.

Khoza reads himself quite sensitively. Yet it is also worth mentioning that in his responses to questions, he alludes to a great number of turns his thinking and work have taken over the years. All of them are intimately related to what is distinctive in him and form a comprehensive enquiry into the very nature of his work and life. In probing his passion for music and the spiritual, it would be misleading to dissociate it from the concrete particular. His feeling for practical detail seems to have taught him about the limit of mysticism and transcendence. Like his own late cousin, Shalati Joseph Khosa, he delves in music for its greater emotional and spiritual intensity.

Muxe: You are a young professional and you’re extremely busy but we appreciate you making time for this project. So thanks very much. I have seen your CV. It's very impressive. You are all over the world and I could tell by your accent that you’ve been around the world. Let's begin. Munene, your father has distinguished himself in business. In your view, what accounts for his success? Because you are his daughter, you’ve had a front-row seat, so you know much more than the average person about what makes your dad such a successful person.

Munene: That's a tricky one but I think it's a combination of things. First, I think it's his inherent and unparalleled ambition and drive. Then there is his work ethic that goes down to the marrow of his bones. And his commitment to those around him - family, colleagues, community. Beyond that, is his deep sense of responsibility, accountability and a sense of being called to lead. I think that probably on his journey there have been opportunities where the prime things I’ve mentioned all came to a head. He was able to grab opportunities that came his way, like his studying abroad, his going to Lancaster, the opportunity to work with someone like the former President Nelson Mandela in his role at Eskom and enriching his own life and the lives of others. I hope I’m making sense but to some extent I think a very, very deep-seated drive, hard work, a commitment to uplifting others and then fourthly, seeing opportunities and making the most of them.

Early life

The lowveld village of Mnombeleni (Arthurseat) in Bushbuckridge is wrapped around a hillock, at the top of which once stood a giant litchi tree, hence the name Mnombeleni - place of litchi trees. The tributary of the Sand River, which the locals named ‘tlula-u-ndzi-teka’, zigged and zagged across the rural village, slicing through the Kruger National Park, on its way back to the source.

In the afternoon of the last day of the last month of the last year of the forties, 31st December 1949, out of one of the homesteads that hung upon the slopes and spread all the way down to the foothill, a bundle of joy came screaming into the world of the living. On this day, the firstborn child of Pius Justice Masaswivona Khoza and Evelyn Sindzisani Khoza, was birthed. He was immediately given the biblical names of Reuel and Jethro, testimony of the faith of his parents who were prominent Christian converts in a village that also doubled up as a mission station of the Church of the Nazarene. His grandparents, Jotham Ndubazi Khoza and Marita Munene Khoza were overcome with joy. They immediately adopted baby Reuel as their own son, so much so that throughout his childhood, Reuel Khoza was blessed with two sets of parents, his real parents and his grandparents. This gave him a tremendous sense of security, protection and wellbeing, as he grew up in the grasslands of Arthurseat.

Finding out why

If there is any truth in what Mark Twain allegedly once said, namely that the two most important days in one's life are the day one is born, and the day one finds out why, then for Reuel Khoza, the distance between those two days was rather short. Khoza was only at primary school when he knew already that when he grows up he wants to be a school principal.